Curse

DreamWind · Jun 11, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I think something from the original "Open Letter to Anet" thread really stands out to me after reading Avarre's post. Let me quote it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

The original Guild Wars was almost an experiment to see if it was possible to have a successful online game that required no monthly fee. In that aspect you succeeded, to a serious degree. Was it this sales figure success that lulled you into the impression that you could just continue to experiment with your game without taking into account the player base that you were affecting? Truly, the primary problem with your game design, in my opinion, is that you have no real way of judging how happy or upset the community is; they buy the game, then it stops mattering what you do it. The money is in your pocket. You can delete all the skills in the game and your subscriptions won't go away because there aren't any; if everyone stopped playing right now, today, you could look at the sales figures and claim the whole thing was a huge success, and completely ignore the millions of enraged players who would be wondering just how badly they've been duped (no pun intended).

A general theme of Avarre's post is that the game has really been downgraded over time in terms of depth. I think the above quote is a big part of the reason why this has happened.

Tatile · Jun 11, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

When you think, having an other opinion, than the OP of an Posting is = trolling, then sry, then I'm guilty...

No I believe it was more to the fact that your post was merely a single line of uselessness rather than anything else (which is actually why I don't like half of this thread). Any self-respecting person will allow others to voice their views and opinions on subjects - and this is entirely the point of forums.

Variety is the spice of life.

pumpkin pie · Jun 11, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Good effort Avarre, I myself would not write a 3,600 words thread. I suspect a good mind like yours get bored with stuffs easily and no matter how Anet change the game, it will never be what it was to you again or the players that have the same complain as yourself, but the truth is, "Average Joe" out here like myself, yes Me, I am an average Joe, is very happy with this game as it is now, I can play and play and play and play for free forever, and I don't need it to be extra challenging to satisfy me, Its a "pass time" and to be honest, able to achieve things medium-hard is very welcome because I really don't need to strain myself when I want to enjoy a game.

A fair question to ask I think which does not need your reply, just think carefully and answer yourself honestly: how many of you "veteran players" are going to stick around playing Guild Wars 1 when Guild Wars 2 is out? Not many is my guess, I also suspect most already not playing it now. And most will probably get bored of Guild Wars 2 as easily as they get bored of Guild Wars 1.

If Guild Wars 1 is reverted to what it was as you remember it, when you have all the good fun times, when Guild Wars 2 comes out and its a blast, its everything you dream it would be, would you still honestly continue to play Guild Wars 1 as usual if HoM isn't there? or will you quickly complete all the titles so you can move it to Guild Wars 2?

Just my 2 cents. because I don't think you are being fair regarding what Anet has been doing to satisfy its customers.

Except maybe Community Relation could use some "upgrade" seeing that this thread is already at pages number 3 when I click reply post and still no CR here to answer your many questions and suggestions and none too has given an answer to Sha Noran's Open Letter as well. I thought this is really bad.

An Open Letter from a true fan need an answer and quick too!

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

If you look at the people who have /signed
they are also long time players who maybe have played themselves out and should be taking a break or maybe moving on to other interests. ANET must have realized that they couldn't continue to provide what people wanted in GW1 (with the current engine they are working with), thus GW2.

It's not the fact that we're bored of the same game, but that Guild Wars is no longer the game it was that made it unique when it was first released.

Regarding those saying the changes were needed for "financial reasons": Guild Wars was selling just fine before they began to change everything drastically in mass quantity.

moriz · Jun 11, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

i would be happy if i can write half as eloquent as you can, avarre. excellent post.

as a suggestion though... it might be better to email this directly to ANet. whether they read it or not is another question, but it will at least be a step closer to them than on a fan forum.

netniwk · Jun 11, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i would be happy if i can write half as eloquent as you can, avarre. excellent post.

as a suggestion though... it might be better to email this directly to ANet. whether they read it or not is another question, but it will at least be a step closer to them than on a fan forum.

Regina is suposed to scroll trough these forums from time to time,she doesn't post very often though.

Stephan123 · Jun 11, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I have read your letter and the only thng i can say is

/signed
/signed and again
/SIGNED

Calaval · Jun 11, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Such a well written post Avarre, your views sum up the thoughts of so many who now view GW2 with apprehension rather than look forward to it.

Turtle222 · Jun 11, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

/signed

This thread needs to be stickied until we get a response.

MrSlayer · Jun 11, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

First up, I'd like to suggest you do infact forward this to Arenanet. You could either make a ticket about it, and continue updating the ticket until it's flagged for concern and looked at by human eyes, or you could try mailing it directly to a member of the ArenaNet team (or even post it on the wiki). I'd say Regina, but I have yet to see much evidence of her being even remotely able to fill the huge shoes Gaile has left behind.

So I'll start with the devs. I am not making a claim that you flame the devs, or point any fingers at anyone in particular for being to blame for the state of the game as it stands right now, but I'd like to raise one large and rather important point. This is a free to play game. That means that their revenue is much, much much lower than that of other contenders (naming games would be pointless...there are many). And also, although they have an online-store, it offers a small range of 'items' that it can hardly be forking in much money either (afterall, how many times are you going to buy the unlock-everythings? The BMP?). Whilst, yes, this shouldn't be a cause for the dev team to put forth a lousy effort, and balance a game that they know little about and then say it's because they don't have the man power or the money they need to do otherwise, it cannot help but contribute.

An example of this is GM's. I take here World of Warcraft as an example. Please, read the remainder of what I have to say before passing this off as another WoWvsGW comparison, for I'm choosing it for the sole reason that it's the only other MMORPG that I have played within the past 4 years. In WoW, there are GMs who are (to my knowledge) payed for what they do. I gather it is only a small amount of money, perhaps it's even just a free subscription to play? who knows. But this extra man power must suck up at least a portion of Blizzard's profit; after all, they're running hundreds of servers. But it creates a situation where, if I find (example) that I can't pick up a quest I abandoned, I can simply contact an actual person, and not a robot, and have a response (that has been tested) within 4 hours. This doesn't happen in GW because there simply is not enough man power. Now sure, enough people would be alright, if not eager, to take on this role without payment, but then there is a huge chance it would just be abused.

So what does this mean for Guildwars players? Well it means that there is nothing more than a bunch of robots, the occasional fansite forum post, and general word of mouth that a bug has come up, or that a skill is unbalanced. And this means that a fix is probably decided on without much thorough testing, and without a full range of information. I point out here that now catapults in THK etc will kill anyone using them, not the target; guesses point to this being an un-expected outcome of the fix to fire/poison darts in EotN.

However, I will now contradict myself slightly in saying that I do agree strongly that alot of the game updates that massively impact the game are thoughtless, and in most cases pathetic (I think we all remember the week of "Fixed an Exploit"...well gee...sure good to see Anet working hard to keep their game in tip-top shape) which should not happen, even with the game being free2play. Skill balances, as you mentioned, are seemingly done based purely on what people have complained about, and not off testing by whoever it is that balances skills.

Guildwars 2...this is also something I am absolutely sick and tired of seeing thrown around. "We won't be updating this until GW2...we won't be fixing that until GW2...oh that's a good idea. Well maybe in GW2". I have a horrible sinking feeling that this is going to lead to a massive amount of disappointment. I can use my own little analogy here. Fishing. You (Anet), are dangling this juicy worm infront of us, almost seeming out of reach. We take a bite of this lovely delicacy, and oh god; we're stuck grinding out useless titles and filling up our HoM, only to be hauled into what we can hope is freedom, to find a tub full of other disappointed fish. With all these promises, and the problems the lack of your care for GW has brought around, how do we know that we won't just find this "GW2" to be a complete disappointment.

Perhaps a better idea would be to keep GW alive with better updates, and more useful thought. Maybe then, as players, we could feel that we haven't been forgotten in this rush to build the tallest tower, to climb the highest mountain. Afterall, without us, none of the Guildwars line that have or will ever exist would happen.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Mister_Smiley · Jun 11, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

At first i didn't fell like reading it, but i decided to anyways and i have to say it is a VERY good post. You make some good points there as well. Its really hard to find things to keep me into the game and that is one of the major issues. But i play anyways because i love the game. Anywho i will do the same as alot of people who posted here.

/signed

Lyndka · Jun 11, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I read the post with a lump in my throat - and tried to understand the feelings that created it - then I realised - I'm not a noob anymore, I've been in GW over 12 months now and so many of the sentiments here are mine now too!

/signed - definitely

darkdreamr · Jun 11, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Well, couple things. First of all, skill over time is probably the most overused and least understood phrase describing GW. For one thing they are intricately related because with time comes experience, and experience can trump skill any day. Players don't jump into HA and "know" how to run an RC bar because they're so skilled, it's something they learn over time. That's why the best players are long time veterans.

Above a certain basic level of competence (weapon set switching, good reflexes, kiting) I don't think there's any influence of skill on PvE, just better builds run by more experienced players using better coordination. I'd say the skill ceiling for PvP is higher, but again skill is a very small perturbation on the experience level of the player.

What Anet has done, is attempt to lower the skill ceiling of PvE so that players of any amount of experience can have success. Avarre makes a good point which is that they should have done this by tweaking the balance of the mobs and the areas, not by tweaking the balance and slowly increasing the power of the player skills. They really should have made the elite PvE areas beatable instead of impossible without cookie cutter builds (recall wars in the deep, obsidian flesh tanks, etc) that everyone had to run because that was the only way to beat the area in a reasonable amount of time. That, to me, is the real crime. The beauty of GW is in the complexity, and the need for unflexible gimmicks to beat the highest-difficulty areas saddens me.

The other thing is that nerfing Ursan today will not fix this problem. And reverting everything back to the "good old days" is not gonna work either, that's just nostalgia talking. But I'm glad Avarre wrote this so that hopefully the devs will get the proper mindset going into GW2. You don't need to give "average Joe" the ability to beat every area in the game by equipping a single skill. Joe is completely happy working his butt off to achieve that goal. In most games, that work is signified with levels. And when I get to level 49 then I'll be able to do a Forge run. As Joe levels, he gets more experienced too. And so there doesn't have to be a lowest common denominator for every area, if you design the game that way. The problem is that in GW, without any levels, there's not necessarily any experience increase after level 20, just the feeling of "I'm level 20, why can't I do this area?" There has to be something built into the game that encourages people to get better, so that they don't need gimmicks or Ursan or consets.

Enough.

KZaske · Jun 11, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

So many issues so little time. Overall I agree with the OP and with MrSlayer. Regina appears to be a complete failure at her job, time for Anet to replace her with someone that actually wants the job and will do it.
I fully agree with the wording of Calaval above. "your views sum up the thoughts of so many who now view GW2 with apprehension rather than look forward to it."
I had planned on buying GW2 but having seen GWEN, I am very concerned about GW2 and doubt I will spend the money on it. I will look for a trial key to see what it is like before I buy it. I will need a real trial key, not the very limited joke they offer now.

Magikarp · Jun 11, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

im going to kiss you right on the mouth. thats right.. you earned it.

/signed+mankiss for the most mature, well organized post this forum has ever seen.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Jun 11, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

/signed

This thread needs to be stickied until we get a response.

they've been awful quiet lately, and I don't know that they'd respond to this, other than "i'll be forwarding it to others". But i guess it would be nice to know they're at least considering what Avarre said.

As for the post, these are the threads we need to fix things. Not the rage/crying that we usually have all the time. Nice job.

Yichi · Jun 11, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

one word to describe this: EPIC!

Although sadly, as much as we would all like to actually see a ANET dev or employee come into this thread and have an actual discussion about it, I have a very strange feeling that we will hear absolutely nothing from ArenaNet on this thread.

/signed for the OP

Balan Makki · Jun 11, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What I meant by that was designing PvE closer to PvP - in that mob groups were given decent skillbars and balanced groups rather than level 30 and supercharged skills. In that way something imbalanced in PvP would be similarly so in PvE, and hence balance for the sake of PvP would cause less disruption in PvE. At the same time, it would reduce the reliance on tanking/prot spirit etc, while rewarding skillful play as the mobs actually, to a degree, acted like players in their group. This wouldn't need to be in place in all areas, but it would make more interesting elite zones, in my view.

I don't think this would cripple PvP - it might actually help the movement of players across as PvE would be more similar to PvP. Balance would still be focused on PvP play, this would simply lessen the disruption of balance on PvE from balance changes not made for it.

I was able to grasp this, ^ and it is a very constructive suggestion. But. . .

Unfortunately, you may want to hit the edit button and apply a cynicism/spite/Talking-Down-To filter to your OP. Your OP is dripping with venom. I couldn't finish it, too personal, more like a letter to yourself. But I'm only a fan, what do I know. My guess is Arena Net will not take it as seriously (even read) with all the Venom. Gail said Devs read stuff if it is short consice and to the point. Yeah, you need to hit that edit button.

Personally I agree with your above suggestion. Hardmode++ should have what you suggest plus all the PvE skill on double sized skill bars for MOB. I personally use very few PvE skills, so I've not had the same problems. Elite players could even have their own title, so the chaff will know they are The Elite.

I'd love to see MoB Usran, with constant and spamable knockdowns, interupts, skills like "Finish Him." Monks impossible to kill unless you head back to the outpost to tailor your build specifically to beat Boss Monks, then to find the monks are not there now, but a dungeon full of Boss Mesmers. And 1000 other fun ways to sweat in front of my computer.

That's one epic post why Arena Net should not provide options and accessibility to all players, but rather provide content for a very select few.

good luck. . .

Kotetsu Rain · Jun 11, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Nicely put into words.

Clarissa F · Jun 11, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Let me be the Devils's Advocate. While the post is quite eloquent and has many excellent points, it is written by someone who has played the game since Day 1. If I were to read the same book constantly over and over for the same amount of time as game hours played, that book wouldn't have the same enjoyment as the first time. If you look at the people who have /signed
they are also long time players who maybe have played themselves out and should be taking a break or maybe moving on to other interests. ANET must have realized that they couldn't continue to provide what people wanted in GW1 (with the current engine they are working with), thus GW2.

You read some bad books. I could read the Stand over and over. You can't read LotR without finding something new or see something in a different light. If the book is GOOD ENOUGH, it will keep your attention(unless you are part of the ADD generation, in which case...here's some Ridalin).

A good game is like that, as well. No matter how many times you log on, it can give you the satisfaction of a unique, quality experience. This game doesn't have that, anymore, and it's sad that we lose another veteran in Avarre because of it(My mesmer is crying, dammit!)

Good post, Avarre. I wasn't expecting the punters to reply, but good effort.